Microsoft is Sueing TomTom for...?

[Peter715]

What do we think Microsoft is Suing TomTom for?

Patent Infringement is what's been said but what do Microsoft have in terms of navigation stuff?

Like my last post about Tomtom losing $1.3 Billion, this seems like it could be another heavy hit for TomTom.

Could it be RIP Tomtom in the US?

Check out what's been said, click here.

 

[mvl]

See this link:

http://media.techflash.com/documents/tomtomComplaint.pdf

 

[RobertB]

Here's how it's being presented at Slashdot:

Slashdot | Has Microsoft's Patent War Against Linux Begun?
Posted by timothy on Wed Feb 25, '09 05:30 PM
from the begun-this-clone-war-has dept.

Glyn Moody writes
"Microsoft has filed a suit against TomTom, 'alleging that the in-car navigation company's devices violate eight of its patents ? including three that relate to TomTom's implementation of the Linux kernel.' What's interesting is that the intellectual property lawyer behind the move, Horacio Gutierrez, has just been promoted to the rank of corporate vice president at Microsoft. Is this his way of announcing that he intends going on the attack against Linux?"​

 

[Peter715]

Thanks people. This is interesting (In a kind of weird way)!

Microsoft is certainly one big heavyweight to mess with. Whats the bets it's settled out of court and we don't hear anything about it again?

 

[gatorguy]

But it may delay the arrival of the 740 to the North American market. Most of the alleged infringements surround the way the "live" services are presented and delivered. TomTom's not in a very good financial position to either delay the new model or fight the claim. I think they'll buckle and pay. Bet it won't be cheap either.

 

[Malouff]

gatorguy,

What was LIVE suppose to have in NA?
I know it will not have the HD traffic.

I think if Microsoft is after just the upcoming x40 then TomTom should just make it a Europe only product.

They then could release a new navcore targeted for the x20/x30 with some of the x40 features.
I am sure that there are some x20/x30 users who would love to pay to get Google access and it would give them some income from that.

It would also make up for the stuttering for others by having a new UI, night menu scheme, and the new voice commands so long as the stutter is also removed.

 

[mvl]

MS probably figures they can hit many issues at once.

1) They fire an opening salvo in the Linux patent war
2) They weaken a competitor to Sync
3) They weaken a key supplier to Google
4) They weaken a debt-ridden company in a recession, lowering the price of a MS/tomtom acquisition since all MS's other divisions are plateauing their growth.

 

[mvl]

What was LIVE suppose to have in NA?
I know it will not have the HD traffic.

I can't understand why Tomtom can't just patch HD traffic for the x30 in the US.

Per the Q4 investor call, Tomtom is expecting 1 million units to be HD capable by mid-2009. Since they sell about 1 million units per month, I can only assume that they have no plans to launch HD on the x30.

I know HD traffic is a Vodafone joint venture and they're handcuffed with CDMA in the US. But it seems really easy to just install the servers in the US, and patch the software to relay the HD through bluetooth Verizon data. Most Verizon phones already are tomtom data capable.

North America has higher tomtom sales than Europe and lower tomtom market share, so it seems obvious that tomtom should focus more of their efforts here.

 

[Peter715]

I'm loving everybody's thoughts, solutions and predictions on this. It has to be said, people on this site are very knowledgeable and I wish I had these kind of answers when I can support, or something like that!

If Tomtom continues to crash I think all of us should band together, buy the company out, and make it work the way we all would want it to. I'm pretty sure if we put in a good offer right now Tomtom would take it. mvl, Malouff, gatorguy, RobertB, with the knowledge we have between us I'm sure we could get things back on the right track.

Anybody else up for taking TomTom over? LOL.

 

[gatorguy]

How many life rafts can we have?

Seriously tho, TomTom has indicated that no HD traffic is planned for any of the x20/x30 devices, either here or in Europe. Tho they originally said an HD receiver would be made available for the Euro-version x30's as the services rolled out to various countries, subsequent indications are they have changed their minds.
I've also been corrrected on my understanding of the Microsoft suit. It's not curently aimed at the 740 Live, but I think only because it's not currently a NA shipping device. Instead it targets all of the TT line that uses Linux along with what Microsoft claims to be specific turn-by-turn navigation functions covered by MS patents. Most of the case looks to me to be without merit, tho a couple of points might stick. The bigger issue is whether TT can afford to defend themselves adequately. May capitulate simply because it's the cheaper way to go.

 

[Malouff]

TomTom has indicated that no HD traffic is planned for any of the x20/x30 devices, either here or in Europe. Tho they originally said an HD receiver would be made available for the Euro-version x30's as the services rolled out to various countries, subsequent indications are they have changed their minds.

This just shows how stupid TomTom is.
Instead of making an easy sale so they can at least gain some money for making these services available to the current devices/customers they would rather hold back and work harder justifying the need to buy the x40.

By doing this they are targeting just potential new customers and die hard TomTom fans who have to have the latest and greatest.

Sure they may make more by selling the device than just the service but by not making it available for the current devices/customers hey are also missing out on the money that some of us would be willing to pay for just the service and are not interested in buying another device yet.

Talk about a loss in potential income.

I look at it this way the x40 will either make or break TomTom.
A device is a one time buy and after that you must gain income from maps and services.

They also appear to not be ready to compete with maps in the US vs Garmin's LifeTime maps and Navgon's Fresh Maps.

 

[Peter715]

I agree with Malouff comment above. Couldn't have put it better.

I'm happy to pay for just a service or a add on like navtones, but am defiantly not interested in buying another device yet. If they don't sort it out I will laugh when Microsoft take em to the cleaners!

Come on mate, lets buy them out and run how it should be run!

 

[Malouff]

I will laugh when Microsoft take em to the cleaners!
Come on mate, lets buy them out and run how it should be run!

If there is a change in ownership I am hoping for a Google Takeover after all they are already using Tele Atlas Maps and are sort of using Mapshare.

 

[canderson]

What do we think Microsoft is Suing TomTom for?

Microsoft has thrown the kitchen sink at TomTom to see what sticks. To take the first patent in the recitation of the complaint (6,175,789); the claims of this patent simply either do not apply to TomTom's technology or are overly broad.

The first two independent claims (1 and 8) require vehicle functions themselves to be controlled. TomTom does well enough to provide directional information -- I'm not sure I trust them with the anti-lock brakes just yet <g>.

Claim 9 would cover any computer device in a car that employs a "faceplate" (overly broad).

Claim 15 is for a vehicle based network.

Claim 16 appears to again require some sort of control of a vehicle subsystem.

Claim 20 is for a vehicle based network.

You can see that Microsoft was trying to tie up any bus system for a car that could be imagined. Too bad concepts like CAN already existed before this patent was (erroneously) issued by our understaffed and misguided US Patent & Trademark Office.


Look each of them up if you like to see what you think. US Patent Full-Text Database Number Search

 

[tomtomgps]

This doesn't look good for tomtom.

 

[RobertB]

Slashdot has a new article on the case: Slashdot | Analyzing Microsoft's Linux Lawsuit, in which they link to articles saying:

* "There's an anti-trust angle to this suit that could blow up in Microsoft's face"
* "There's a high probability that some or all of the patents involved are invalid, due to recent court decisions"
* "Microsoft is aware its case is weak, yet hopes for a PR victory at limited cost"
* "Redmond's action could be retaliation for TomTom's spurning a Microsoft acquisition bid in 2006"

Slashdot seems to see MS vs. TT as an attempt to kill or cripple Linux in the corporate market. Since Slashdotters are highly biased towards open-source technologies, their analysis should be viewed in context. But it's clearly going to be the best source for ongoing updates on the topic.

 

[Peter715]

From Top Tech News:

"Microsoft's patent-infringement suit against TomTom is a private dispute and doesn't appear aimed at Linux or open-source software. Linux Foundation Executive Director Jim Zemlin advised the open-source community to stay calm. Microsoft's suit comes as it faces another antitrust ruling, and it may want to settle the TomTom suit quietly. "

The way I read this article is that this will be settled out of court and everybody will try to pretend it never happened. I still think the knock on effect it will have on Tomtom could leave the manufactures is a bad place. With the world economy crashing all around us, the $1.3 billion loss Tomtom just reported and now the possibility of them having to pay a hefty sum of money to MS (in court or out) can not be taken lightly and leave Tomtom in trouble.

If tomtom does go down people seem quite happy for Google to buy them out. How would MS take that if Google did buy them out? Wouldn't this be worse for MS if Google did? It's starting to all get a bit messy and that is why I think a settlement will come along and it will all be forgotten and taken out of the media.

 

[GAW]

Why doesn't TT counter-sue MS in EU courts for anti trust - EU courts LOVE smacking MS with big fines - they might also award big damages.

 

[Three3]

Another part of the suit involves patents on the FAT file system. Microsoft has gone after a number of companies for the same reason in the past.

Here's a link to an article in GPS World. Microsoft Takes TomTom to Court over Patents - GPS Mass Market OEM

 

[RobertB]

Just a clarification for the non-technical folks: the FAT file system is what makes it possible to plug in just about any USB "bulk storage" device (like a thumb drive, MP3 player, or your TomTom) and have Windows see the files. There are other file systems out there, many of which are superior, such as ext2/3 which is used extensively in Linux distributions. But Windows doesn't support them natively.

What Microsoft did with FAT is establish a de facto universal standard... then go back and say "you can't use it unless you pay us".

Their "licensing", as I understand, is somewhat sporadic. But every once in a while, they'll make an example of someone, like the Mafia burning down the already-struggling corner pizza joint to make sure all the other pizza joints keep paying their "protection" money.