how cold is too cold for the tomtom?

[vivithemage]

My go510 sits in my car when I am not using it, in its case, next to my door, in that little cubby.

In Minnesota, it can get in the negative weather, is it bad for it to keep it out there? I would hate to leave it out there and not work all of a sudden!

 

[sparky672]

My go510 sits in my car when I am not using it, in its case, next to my door, in that little cubby.

In Minnesota, it can get in the negative weather, is it bad for it to keep it out there? I would hate to leave it out there and not work all of a sudden!

The TomTom online FAQs discuss this issue... they don't recommend it.

Extreme cold can damage anything electronic like this. Not so much the circuit board but the LCD and Lithium battery can freeze.

I live near Chicago and wouldn't leave it in the car in my unheated garage.

 

[ruwafl]

if memory serves, i read somewhere that the low end temp is 14 degrees.

 

[JimT]

My go510 sits in my car when I am not using it, in its case, next to my door, in that little cubby.

In Minnesota, it can get in the negative weather, is it bad for it to keep it out there? I would hate to leave it out there and not work all of a sudden!

I would never risk it!!! Kiss any warranty goodbye!

 

[sparky672]

if memory serves, i read somewhere that the low end temp is 14 degrees.

14 to 131 F is the operating range.

Storage is another matter.

 

[Pedro2NR]

I would not recommend it. Take it down with you.

 

[mnguy07]

The TomTom online FAQs discuss this issue... they don't recommend it.

Extreme cold can damage anything electronic like this. Not so much the circuit board but the LCD and Lithium battery can freeze.

I live near Chicago and wouldn't leave it in the car in my unheated garage.

Lithium batteries won't freeze til around -40. No worries there.

The answer really all depends on how it was made. Look at all the nav systems in OEM cars and all the aftermarket systems. No warnings there not to use your stereo below X temp. With TomTom listing the operating temp at a minimum of 14 degrees I don't think I'd have any worries. The temp in your car is often warmer then the temp outside... as is the temp in a garage.

 

[sparky672]

Lithium batteries won't freeze til around -40. No worries there.

The answer really all depends on how it was made. Look at all the nav systems in OEM cars and all the aftermarket systems. No warnings there not to use your stereo below X temp. With TomTom listing the operating temp at a minimum of 14 degrees I don't think I'd have any worries. The temp in your car is often warmer then the temp outside... as is the temp in a garage.

Again... +14 is the low end of the operating range which means power is flowing through it. But we're talking about storing it in the car, without power, which means it's eventually going to get as cold as the ambient air temperature.

Sometimes it gets down to -25 in Chicago in the middle of the day (No, that's NOT w/ windchill). Every year we get a few days in the -10 range. We certainly get more than a few days in the 0 to +10 range. Minnesota is going to be worse.

Cars parked outside and unheated/uninsulated garages will easily get down to ambient temperatures given some time. (The Caller-ID box in my unheated garage had an LCD display that never recovered from last winter and is now partially blank.)

Living near Chicago in winter, I would not leave a laptop, an iPod, a cell phone, a digital camera, a TomTom, or anything else like that in a car. These things are built pretty tough so you may even get away with it once or twice... then poof, it's dead and you wonder what happened.

Let's not forget the thermal shock the silicon will endure when power is suddenly applied after a day at zero. Or the condensation that will form internally when the surrounding air is heated. (yeah, that's what you want... a Lithium ion battery to get wet!)

The car radio is a bad example since a trickle of battery power is always flowing and it's designed for harsh extremes much like your car's computer. Apples & Oranges.

Many other parts of the country with year round mild weather will never have to worry, but in the upper midwest I wouldn't take any chances.

 

[mnguy07]

Again... +14 is the low end of the operating range which means power is flowing through it. But we're talking about storing it in the car, without power, which means it's eventually going to get as cold as the ambient air temperature.

Sometimes it gets down to -25 in Chicago in the middle of the day (No, that's NOT w/ windchill). Every year we get a few days in the -10 range. We certainly get more than a few days in the 0 to +10 range. Minnesota is going to be worse.

Cars parked outside and unheated/uninsulated garages will easily get down to ambient temperatures given some time. (The Caller-ID box in my unheated garage had an LCD display that never recovered from last winter and is now partially blank.)

Living near Chicago in winter, I would not leave a laptop, an iPod, a cell phone, a digital camera, a TomTom, or anything else like that in a car. These things are built pretty tough so you may even get away with it once or twice... then poof, it's dead and you wonder what happened.

Let's not forget the thermal shock the silicon will endure when power is suddenly applied after a day at zero. Or the condensation that will form internally when the surrounding air is heated. (yeah, that's what you want... a Lithium ion battery to get wet!)

The car radio is a bad example since a trickle of battery power is always flowing and it's designed for harsh extremes much like your car's computer. Apples & Oranges.

Many other parts of the country with year round mild weather will never have to worry, but in the upper midwest I wouldn't take any chances.

I really don't think it's going to hurt the unit sitting in cold weather for short periods of time. How long do you think they sit in the warehouse? On a truck? Do you think either are heated all the time? You're making it sound a lot more fragile then I bet it is. Manufacturers think of things like this. Even if you don't want to believe that where are all the stories of TomTom's being ruined from sitting in cold weather? Better yet, where's one?

I live in the midwest, too (Minneapolis). While it does get cold here the average isn't below 0 for long. You make it seem like it is.

The car radio is a perfect example. Do you know that the unit wasn't built using the same care? it seems pretty obvious from the low operating temp they list that the unit was built to withstand freezing temps while on just fine. I find it hard to believe that it cannot do the same or better while it's off.

 

[mnguy07]

I just reread the owners manual for the GO 720:

Temperatures: Standard operation: 14F to 131F;short period storage: -4F to 140F; long period storage: -4F to 77F

There's the answers we needed.

 

[sparky672]

I really don't think it's going to hurt the unit sitting in cold weather for short periods of time.

First off, I never specified any time period. There are many variables in play here. I'm sure you've heard of "thermal shock" & "condensation". How long before you stress something out too many times is not something to easily predict.

How long do you think they sit in the warehouse? On a truck? Do you think either are heated all the time?

They do get quite cold during delivery to your house and the drivers don't turn them on/off during transport, do they? Didn't you ever open up a brand new CD or DVD player and see the enclosed note?... it says something about letting your new electronic device come up to room temperature before plugging it in. And like I tried to explain to you before ... it's the thermal shock and condensation which are the main issues.

You're making it sound a lot more fragile then I bet it is. Manufacturers think of things like this. Even if you don't want to believe that where are all the stories of TomTom's being ruined from sitting in cold weather? Better yet, where's one?

Oh brother! That's because a dead TomTom from too much thermal shock "looks" the same as one that just dies for any other reason. Leave it out in the cold too much this week and maybe it dies next week. Unless it's smashed or drowned, all dead TomTom's will look the same.

I live in the midwest, too (Minneapolis). While it does get cold here the average isn't below 0 for long. You make it seem like it is.

I live in rural Illinois near Chicago. When we have cold spells, they last for a week or two and they're usually between -10 and 10. Some seasons we'll have several deep cold spells and others are more mild. Who cares? This isn't the Weather Channel and people in Alaska have TomTom's too.

The car radio is a perfect example. Do you know that the unit wasn't built using the same care?

It has nothing to do with "care". It has to do with the designed operating specifications. Car radios are built to sit inside cars 24/7 with power applied to them 24/7. It's something entirely different from portable GPS's, cameras, iPods, and laptops.

it seems pretty obvious from the low operating temp they list that the unit was built to withstand freezing temps while on just fine. I find it hard to believe that it cannot do the same or better while it's off.

While it's off... YES.... did you not read anything I wrote about thermal shock and condensation? "Off" isn't as bad as when you finally turn it back on and suddenly shoot millions of electrons at the speed of light through all those sub-freezing microscopic components.

short period storage: -4F to 140F;

It never gets below -4 in Minnesota.


I'm sure these devices are built very sturdy, but taking good care of it would include avoiding huge thermal shocks and condensation... no different really than the avoidance of repeatedly dropping it on your driveway, not slamming it down on your desk, or keeping it out of the rain.

 

[mnguy07]

I'm sure these devices are built very sturdy, but taking good care of it would include avoiding huge thermal shocks and condensation... no different really than the avoidance of repeatedly dropping it on your driveway, not slamming it down on your desk, or keeping it out of the rain.

I'm going to ignore the rest of your post as it's more ranting then factual information. You like to use the phrase thermal shock and the word condensation with no information to back it up. You'd like to think that those terms apply to this particular case however the fact is that TomTom has said via the owners manual that storing the device at -4F is not an issue. They've also stated that operating well below freezing isn't a issue. It seems, even though you'd like not to believe this, that TomTom engineered their units to withstand the environmental conditions it would see in a car. After all, it is a unit designed and manufactured to be used in a car. Imagine that.

So, I'll ask you this. Do you have any factual information to substantiate your claim or should I trust that the TomTom engineers did their homework and know a little more about their unit then you?

 

[sparky672]

You should feel free to keep your TT in your car all year long if that's what makes you happy.

It seems, even though you'd like not to believe this, that TomTom engineered their units to withstand the environmental conditions it would see in a car. After all, it is a unit designed and manufactured to be used in a car. Imagine that.

You should read the battery notes in your manual then...

This product uses a Lithium-Polymer battery. Do not use it in a humid, wet and/or corrosive environment. Do not put, store or leave your product in or near a heat source, in a high temperature location, in strong direct sunlight, in a microwave oven or in a pressurized container, and do not expose it to temperatures over 60C (140F). Failure to follow these guidelines may cause the Lithium-Polymer battery to leak acid, become hot, explode or ignite and cause injury and/or damage. Do not pierce, open or disassemble the battery. If the battery leaks and you come into contact with the leaked fluids, rinse thoroughly with water and seek medical attention immediately. For safety reasons, and to prolong the lifetime of the battery, charging will not occur at low (below 0C/32F) or high (over 45C/113F) temperatures.

Wait a second! TomTom engineers are telling me not to leave the device in strong direct sunlight or in a high temperature location. Ever been inside a parked car near Chicago in July? They also say to avoid humid conditions... ever been to Alabama in August? No wait, that can't be right, you just told me that these things are engineered to withstand all environmental conditions inside cars. Imagine that!

I'm going to ignore the rest of your post as it's more ranting then factual information. You like to use the phrase thermal shock and the word condensation with no information to back it up.

Oh yeah, such big words. I thought I "backed it up" already... but you ignored it all.

"condensation" is something we learned about in grade school. It's when "humidity" (see above) turns back into liquid water after contact with a "cold" surface. We all know water is bad for Lithium batteries, right? Do I really have to back that one up too?

... The recommended storage temperature for most batteries is 15?C (59?F)....

.... The combination of high charge level and elevated ambient temperature presents an unfavorable condition for the battery. This explains the short lifespan of many laptop batteries....

.... Keep batteries in a cool and dry storage area. Refrigeration is recommended but freezers should be avoided. When refrigerated, the battery should be placed in a plastic bag to protect against condensation....

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-19.htm

I studied "thermal shock" while getting my electrical engineering degree back in the 80's.

Ice cubes suffer "thermal shock" when they hit a warmer liquid and spontaneously crack/pop apart. Solder joints inside electronics crack from the repeated stresses of thermal shock too and it only takes one out of thousands for the whole device to permanently shut down.

If you insist on something to read, this should keep you busy though...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_shock

So, I'll ask you this. Do you have any factual information to substantiate your claim or should I trust that the TomTom engineers did their homework and know a little more about their unit then you?

My comments are my professional opinions as an EE from U of I in Champaign, IL. Even so, I never once claimed to know more than TomTom engineers. I've only very specifically responded to your "comments" one at a time.

Let me ask you this: If -4 F is acceptable for long term storage, what do you suppose would happen at -5 degrees? That's right, most likely the same thing that would happen at -5 also happens at -4.

Things stress more as you approach the recommended limits. Go too far past these operating limits and things start to break. It's true with mechanical systems (like car engines) and it's true with electronic systems. So I'll say it again in another way... if you want to take good care of your device, stay away from the extreme operating limits. Avoiding the extreme operating limits... this should be common sense ... yet how do you explain common sense?


I said:

... but taking good care of it would include avoiding huge thermal shocks and condensation... no different really than the avoidance of repeatedly dropping it on your driveway, not slamming it down on your desk, or keeping it out of the rain.

I'm very sure my TomTom was also engineered to withstand a good fall, getting slammed down hard on a table, and some splashes of water. However, would anyone wanting to "take care of their stuff" intentionally do these things?

And that's really the whole point. Sure you can operate it below freezing but you certainly won't be taking good care of the unit.

 

[mnguy07]

Even so, I never once claimed to know more than TomTom engineers.

THANK YOU. That's all I needed to know.

I've only very specifically responded to your "comments" one at a time.

My comments have been around what the owners manual says. You disagree with me, and by proxy TomTom, in regard to when their unit should be operated. You can nit pick all you want about lithium batteries, condensation and thermal shock. The plain simple fact is TomTom deemed this unit ok to be operated in temps below freezing and to be stored well below even that. If any of the issues you bring up were a factor whatsoever I'd bet TomTom would adjust their recommendations accordingly.

As far as your long winded posts go, they've done absolutely nothing to prove that anything you've mentioned has any relevance when speaking of TomTom units. The general posts you've made with links to other sites are just that, general.

Even if you didn't want to believe a word I say, how many units have you heard of dying because of cold weather? Do a search and let me know.. and don't say there's no way to tell. People describe what they were doing when things die or don't function correctly.

 

[sparky672]

My comments have been around what the owners manual says. You disagree with me, and by proxy TomTom, in regard to when their unit should be operated. You can nit pick all you want about lithium batteries, condensation and thermal shock. The plain simple fact is TomTom deemed this unit ok to be operated in temps below freezing and to be stored well below even that. If any of the issues you bring up were a factor whatsoever I'd bet TomTom would adjust their recommendations accordingly.

As far as your long winded posts go, they've done absolutely nothing to prove that anything you've mentioned has any relevance when speaking of TomTom units. The general posts you've made with links to other sites are just that, general.

Even if you didn't want to believe a word I say, how many units have you heard of dying because of cold weather? Do a search and let me know.. and don't say there's no way to tell. People describe what they were doing when things die or don't function correctly.

The problem is that YOU are not saying the same thing as TomTom engineers. They simply give an operating and storage range along with some battery care warnings... you've then assumed that means all sorts of other things regarding 24/7 storage in cars. One problem is that the temperature in a car can, at times, in certain areas, EXCEED the posted storage and operating ranges as well as violate the TomTom battery care rules.

Since you don't want to comprehend any technical explanation whatsoever of how temperature changes can stress electronic devices, you'll always sleep easy after pushing your unit right up to its engineered limits.

My point was plain and my posts were detailed because you complained nothing was backed up. There's no pleasing some people.

 

[itguy05]

I think a lot of the wording in the manual is CYA. There's the same stuff in the manual for my XM Satellite radio, which is DESIGNED to be mounted in the car. I've left it in the car for 3 years without issue through the hot summer here in PA and through the cold winters. Still works fine.

However, in the heat, I'd not leave it on the dash. Put it in a console or take it with you.

In the cold, I'd do the same as if it's anything like the LCD in my car's nav system (Tomtom is fot the wife's car), it's very dim and sluggish when things get cold. It takes a while for the backlight and LCD to warm up.

 

[sparky672]

Here's an excerpt from a post in these forums.

It's a reply from TomTom Tech Support to an inquery about batteries. Read all or skip to parts in bold.

https://www.tomtomforums.com/showpost.php?p=7596&postcount=5

TomTom Support Email:

Below is some information you would like to have about your unit's battery:

- It takes about 2 hours to fully charge the GO battery.

- The battery stops charging when it's full, so, for example, you can leave it plugged in overnight.

- Leaving your TomTom GO connected all the time doesn't overcharge it.

As in any technology equipment, there are certain meassures that may help you prevent any problems in the future.

Do not expose your TomTom GO to extreme heat or extreme cold; you may permanently damage your battery's capacity, even more if you charge your GO in these temperatures.

The table below shows temperature ranges for using your TomTom GO. As you can see, cold weather may affect your batteries life.

Standard operation - 10?C (min temp) + 55?C (max temp)
Short period storage - 20?C (min temp) + 60?C (max temp)
Long period storage - 20?C (min temp) + 25?C (max temp)

You also asked about the time you can expect the battery to last when not in use. If the device was fully charged and idle, you may expect the charge to last about 6 hours.

We'd advice you to have your TomTom GO 300 in the car only while driving, since cold temperatures do shorten the battery's life. If you're not planning to use it, try to keep it as warm as possible, or take it inside your house to prevent short charge holding times

Please keep in mind that the battery cannot be replaced, but a correct care of it would avoid any problems in the future.

 

[sparky672]

I hate to seem like this is beating a dead horse but if you care about the life-span of your portable electronics, it's a very important topic.

My comments have been around what the owners manual says.

If anyone here is still confused as to the best way to care care of your TomTom or doubts that temperature extremes puts undue stress on electronic devices, I refer you to the Owner's Manual for a TomTom ONE...

TomTom ONE Owners' Manual

then on page 4 near the bottom:

Take care of your TomTom ONE:

- Do not expose your ONE to high or low temperatures, which can cause permanent damage. For example, don’t leave it in the car on hot summer days or during cold winter nights.

Although TomTom engineers give you a wide range of operating & storage temperatures, TomTom still feels the need to spell out some common sense care tips in their owners' manual. Probably because this is a "unit designed and manufactured to be used in a car", they thought some people would erroneously assume they could always just leave it in their car. Imagine that!

Damn, I wish I had spotted this page a few messages ago.

 

[Three3]

It?s also bad at the high end of the temperature spectrum. My ONE refused to start up after a half hour or so closed up in the instrument panel cubby hole in my Subaru Forester on a hot sunny day. It?s got a black surface facing right up at the windshield. I had to lovingly cradle it in the blast from the air conditioner for five minutes or so to resuscitate it.

 

[Bwanap]

910

I'm in Chicago and we have had some pretty cold days this year, especially this last week. I have had several times in the last months where my TT would not function, it would only go to the start up screen and hang. I would have to reset, wait for it to warm up and then it works. I haven't really checked what the ambient temps where at those times, but did happen after longer periods in the car on those cold days. I hadn't actually paid any attention to operating temp initally.

I plan to pay more attention now and as a suggestion, if you don't want to take your TT inside with you during these times, I would agree that at least letting it warm up in the car for a while before startup would be prudent. Usually I only take it off the mount when parking somewhere more suspicious, no problem at my office and I don't usually bother when stopping at most stores (depends alot on the neighborhood). So taking it off the mount and into the glove box is a compromise as long as I let it warm up before remounting.