Disconnecting Live Services if you do not give Private Information

[Stevolt]

My Go750 Live has just had a new application download and after the device re-started I got a message saying 'You have selected not to share information with Tom Tom. If you continue you will not be able to connect with LIVE services or share your map connections' !!

This is the question I have just uploaded onto their support 'questions'

"You are disconnecting my connection to Live Services because I will not allow you to gather private information through my Tomtom device!
If I have got this wrong please inform me immediately.
If what I believe is correct, you have broken your contract with me and should you not revert the situation within 5 days I shall take you to court without further notice, whereupon I shall sue for breach of contract and damages!
I shall not give permission for you to have my private information. If you do re-connect me please ensure you extend the term of our contract to take into account any period you disconnected me"

Does anyone else know anything about this?

 

[mvl]

What you are describing is accurate, if you do not consent to allowing Tomtom to use your information as the legal disclaimer describes, you cannot use LIVE services.

I agree that this looks like bait-and-switch: eg: changing a contract after it is written. I'm sure their lawyers have already thought up some clever defense should this come up in court.

 

[canderson]

Actually, I don't think their lawyers will prevail in a U.S. court. I've reviewed all of the TomTom docs I can find, and while TomTom is under no legal obligation to provide Live services at all, that provision is worded so as to include all users or users within a market, not a single user who chooses not to continue to participate in TomTom's data collection program. In other words, they could bail on the entire concept in a market, but I see nothing which allows for the singling out of individual users based upon performance of the user not included in the contract when the service was purchased.

The entire process as it's been set up is quite punitive. There is no legal or technical reason for this new quid-pro-quo requirement, and appears to be targeted solely at assuring that TomTom has more 'probes' in the field for their HD traffic service.

 

[adidas1124]

There is no legal or technical reason for this new quid-pro-quo requirement, and appears to be targeted solely at assuring that TomTom has more 'probes' in the field for their HD traffic service.

I'm all for this... a built-in system to crowd source more accurate traffic information is a plus. Our phones are already being used for this, without explicit consent, why not expand on it and further enhance the service we bought our TT LIVE Devices for?

 

[canderson]

It all makes sense, of course. My complaint is that the terms of service have changed without any prior warning, and I doubt that new subscribers are being warned about this.

As I noted in another forum, these are the same people who will tell you what they had for breakfast on Facebook - go figure - but after the recent flaps about what was being tracked and how data has been used, people are getting paranoid. It was a poor time to change the terms of the deal.

 

[canderson]

For those that missed it by not checking out the "More info" screen, it reads (in part) as follows:

If you no longer allow sharing of information, none of
the above information is sent to TomTom and
information previously stored on your device is deleted.
You won’t be able to receive HD Traffic or speed trap
locations, or use any other LIVE services.

 

[Andy_P]

I'm not entirely sure why all of this has been bundled together.

It would be perfectly possible to use much of the LIVE services without sending ANY info back about your personal situation or location.
E.g. you could ask for a Google search or the weather in a city anywhere.

And you could use almost all the other Live Services with just your current location sent back to TT.

But it seems they want ALL the data or they give you nothing. And it's understandable that's going to ruffle a LOT of feathers.

 

[Stevolt]

Well, I have never given permission in the past while I have been using LIVE service so a precedent has now been set.

It is just upon this latest application update that they have disconnected me because I continued to not consent.

I think Tomtom will find it difficult to squirm out of this in court in front of an English judge and yes I do believe also that they need more information than the mobile phone system is giving them to continue with the service and that is why they are attempting this.

If they had waited until I was due to re-subscribe then I would have had the choice.

I can hardly believe an organisation such as they are has left itself so exposed to action.

 

[Cienega32]

I just received the services update for my XL 340S Live and found this thread concerning what I;m looking at right now.

It also says:

Note: The length or date of your service subscription does not change if you do not allow sharing of info

I take it by Stevolt's post that Live is Dead for the remainder of the subscription regardless if it's paid for?

I can understand the use for traffic updates. I know I've sat in stand-still Interstate traffic for lengthy periods and wondered if I was the only TTLive in the parking lot being it would show no problems. I like having the other features of Live and don't see why I should lose them by "opting out" of the data collection.

 

[canderson]

@Cienega

Out of the blue, just this last week I ran across the man at TomTom in charge of dealing with Dutch (and EU in general) Privacy Laws, and he's been very forthcoming with explanations about this whole mess, and has added quite a bit of context and additional information that I had not found in any of their other press releases, web material, etc that go a LONG way to understanding what's happening and why. The news is actually quite good.

I'm gathering some very interesting information through our discussion. When we're done, I plan to produce a fairly comprehensive but easy-to-understand post about what "sharing" actually means, what the EU considers to be 'personal' information, what data is actually being sent and what really happens to it between your unit and TomTom's server and after it arrives, and why TomTom was boxed into a bit of a corner with all of the legalese stuff by the European Union bureaucrats.

The net of it will, I think, please even the more tech savvy and/or paranoid amongst us. When it's all said and done, I think you will agree that your biggest concern will prove not to be TomTom -- it's that a GPRS carrier could track your location in rough measure by your signal alone, just as is possible with any cell phone, and that is out of TomTom's control. Beyond that, the measures taken are quite extraordinary and I think you'll be pleased when they're better understood.

 

[Cienega32]

So, I guess my only question (at this point) would be if I DO agree, and become unpleased with my decision, can I opt out at any time or will I be stuck for the duration of the subscription?

 

[dhn]

No, you can change your mind and agree to share the info. Then you do get LIVE services for the remainder of your subscription.

 

[canderson]

@Cienega

You can opt in and out multiple times a day if you like. I'm sitting here staring at several pages of correspondence (I work better from hardcopy when the data is scattered around - old school) that I REALLY want to get condensed carefully, but you just added a point that hadn't even made its way into the discussion. Guess we thought everyone would spot the option to switch back and forth, but since all of this is designed to explain it 'up front', I'll add the answer to your question to the mix. Thanks!

 

[Andy_P]

Maybe laying it out as a "Q and A" type document would be a good approach to the whole thing, canderson?

I've been following the privacy discussions with "the man" too, and condensing it all down sounds like an epic job, but I'm sure it will be hugely appreciated.

 

[canderson]

It's not exactly a Q&A as I'm setting it up. Rather, it breaks the issue down into the stages of the process.

I start with What is “Personal Data”? and explain why all of the bits that get sent from the unit are considered "Personal Data" by the EU, even stuff as innocuous as the device ID off the SIM card that allows the carrier to identify the unit and decide if it's allowed on the network! The bureaucrats in the EU are very, very tight about including things under the heading of "personal data", even when the end user (TomTom) of that data takes steps so that the information can't be tied to an individual.

Then I move on to How is Your “Personal Data” Sent to TomTom? where I explain a little bit about a Live device, how it connects to an outfit like AT&T or similar just like a cell phone in data mode, and what is being encrypted by the device even before it leaves the TomTom.

Next, I move to What Happens to Your Data at TomTom? where I explain a bit about how the data is managed and a request is assigned a random and anonymous ID that is unrelated to the user, and how even the servers don't get to talk to each other. One server might need to know your location (e.g., the Traffic server), but it uses the anonymous ID to send you your data, and doesn't know who you are. Lots of stuff going on under the hood, all good for user privacy.

Then, having already explained above why a certain amount of what the EU would call "Personal Data" has to be sent just to facilitate getting your request to TomTom and your data back to you from TomTom (even if there's no location information involved in the request), I explain what happens if you choose not to "Share" even that much information under the heading of What Happens if You Do Not "Share"?

Last, there are some footnotes for the truly curious, pointing to such things as links to the EU's description of what constitutes "Personal Data" so a person can, if they want, get it right from the horse's mouth. I've also included a few direct quotes from TomTom's man in charge of privacy issues.

Throughout all of the above, the plain-English summary sentences in each are highlighted in deep blue. A person could read just those and get a sense of the entire thing. Example:

[FONT=&quot]Because there is no differentiation between these types of personal data in EU law, a failure to ‘share’ this data would provide no mechanism for the carrier to validate your access to their network, nor any mechanism for TomTom to validate your account or return data to your device over the Live wireless link. Even Live data requests that would reveal nothing at all about your current location (e.g., asking for Yelp! advice in another city) require your unit’s ID information to confirm your subscription to Live, and the current IP address of your device is necessary to know where to return the data to you.[/FONT]

 

[Andy_P]

Am I right in thinking that there has actually been NO CHANGE in the amount of data that is needed to be sent for LIVE Services to work as they did before?

So all that has happened is that TT are now spelling out exactly what you were letting them take already, if you used the LIVE Services.

If that's so, I think that should be made really clear in big bold letters right at the beginning, if you aren't doing that already.

 

[canderson]

That is correct, Andy. The same data is being sent as before. The difference is that TomTom is trying to respond to EU privacy requirements by having users respond affirmatively that they are willing for that data to be sent.

Problem is, they didn't say that (at least not in so many words) where most users would ever see it, and they never were clear about what was being sent to begin with, so users really didn't know what was happening. I plan to try, in the least painful way possible, to provide that information here.

And yes, that will be the very first paragraph of the document ... something to the effect of "What Changed?"

 

[Cienega32]

Good luck with your endeavor, canderson, and thanks for your efforts.

I began to think the way Andy was thinking and clicked along anyway. I know I was sending the traffic data before this (I'm pretty sure I was, anyway) so why not...

I can't ever recall a road trip where any of the numerous traffic jams or problems that I became snagged in were accurately reported so maybe this will help.

 

[canderson]

Here is one of the proposed paragraphs that starts the article:

What Changed?

In a word, nothing, except a requirement to solicit your permission to continue as before. When your unit creates a link to TomTom’s servers and obtains Live services from those servers, the data that is sent by your unit to TomTom’s servers is the same as what was sent before. However, the EU has some very tough rules about ‘personal data’, and is very specific in those rules about how companies must manage that data and how they must advise their users about their use of that data. With the recent changes to TomTom firmware, the only thing that has changed is that TomTom now requires your specific approval to do what has always been done to effect a Live connection and transfer information. If you decline to approve what is necessary to provide Live services, your unit will cease to send that information, and no Live services are possible.

 

[Andy_P]

Sounds good to me! :thumb: